Or do Republicans claim that all fraudulent votes would be caste for Democrats? That the only fraudulent voters are democrats?
Are concerns about voter fraud nothing more than psychological projection?
In my experience, you can tell a lot about a person and his values by the way he views others - honest people tend to assume others are honest -- liars tend to assume everyone else is a liar.
So, when someone gets all worked up about other folks committing voter fraud - well, you figure it out.....
Projection is a large part of the Conservative Mindset. It helps them rationalize their behavior by assuming the "other" side is engaged in the same despicable behaviors.
ReplyDeleteThis also encapsulates the mindset of the Cookie Roberts, Peggy Noonan, Juan Williams, Jack Cafferty crowd which always proclaim "Both sides do it."
Thanks for stopping by my blog RJW!
Both sides do not do it. Liberals do a lot of things that conservatives don't do, and conservatives do a lot of things that liberals don't do. So it's incorrect to "assume" that if one side does it, the other does, too.
ReplyDeleteFurther, it's also incorrect to conclude that if both sides do it, that means it's self-cancelling. If you conclude that it's self cancelling, you could also conclude that, since two football teams use all the same tactics, every game should end in a tie.
SLC
And since it's self-cancelling (in your mind), it should not bother you if conservatives pass laws aimed at limiting voter fraud. After all, such laws will affect both sides equally, right? So what do you care if a bunch of poor dumb conservatives waste time work to eliminate voter fraud -- it keeps them from doing something really dangerous, doesn't it?
ReplyDeleteSLC
>>Both sides do not do it. Liberals do a lot of things that conservatives don't do, and conservatives do a lot of things that liberals don't do. So it's incorrect to "assume" that if one side does it, the other does, too.
ReplyDeleteGood point. Of course, from the actual reported incidents of attempted voter through mis-identification, it is mainly James O'Keefe trying to commit such fraud.
Are you trying to tell us that you think Dems are more likely to commit such voter fraud than are republicans?
And if so, what is the basis for that belief?
Re thge football analogy - voting is entirely different from playing a team game -- there are no skill involved in casting a vote as compared to playing a game.
>>And since it's self-cancelling (in your mind), it should not bother you if conservatives pass laws aimed at limiting voter fraud.
The GHOP efforts are designed to exclude millions of citizens voters from being allowed to vote and there is no question that such efforts will have very different effects on the voter pools
That is, assuming there is any mis-identification voter fraud, (and what has been demonstrated is absolutely minuscule) there is no reason to believe it won't be evenly divided between dems and republicans.
OTOH, voter disenfranchisement is very much aimed at voters far more likely to vote democratic than republican - GOP voter disenfranchisement is NOT self-cancelling.
It is not only James O'keefe committing voter fraud. It is slashing the tires of Republican vans; it is the doctor who admited he voted twice; it is the shoddy record keeping of Democrat election official Lisa Artison; it is existence of "walking around money"; it is the that voter registration drives are most often led by Democrats and liberals--and that such records are the basis of voter fraud (I mean, seriously, what other government registration is accomplished by someone coming TO YOU? No one comes to your house to help register your car, or your work license, or selective service) --- these are but of few of the incidents providing the basis for my belief.
ReplyDeleteBut my main reason for believing in Democratic voter fraud is that it is the Dems and the liberals who are against voter ID. There is no way that requiring a photo ID disenfranchises a voter. The ID is free--all the voter has to do is ask for it. So a voter ID law disenfranchises no one.
And yet, the Dems and libs are still against it. Why? Because they use it to cheat.
SLC
>> it is the that voter registration drives are most often led by Democrats and liberals--and that such records are the basis of voter fraud
ReplyDeleteI've done voter registration - and I have to turn in ALL registrations - in my state it would be a felony to not turn one in.
Even where I suspect the registration is phony. In that case, I attach a note listing my concerns and the basis for them.
>>But my main reason for believing in Democratic voter fraud is that it is the Dems and the liberals who are against voter ID.
No, we are against photo ID requirements which, for many people, are difficult to acquire.
I have also been a poll worker in a state where we do not require photo IDs. And yet we still require some form of identification. For example, a utility bill. John Doe comes in, shows us a utility bill in his name. We check the voter rolls and make sure there is a John Doe at the address on the bill. Pretty good proof, IMO.
During the Bush admin, it made a huge push to find examples of voter fraud. It came up with less than 200 and less t
"A major Justice Department probe from 2002 to 2007 failed to prosecute a single case in which a person went to the polls to impersonate an eligible voter," a type of fraud that the GOP insists is wide spread. http://www.indyweek.com/indyweek/specter-of-voter-fraud-a-dismal-cover-for-gop-efforts-to-disenfranchise/Content?oid=2679615
n Kansas, despirte GOP claims that "the illegal registration of alien voters has become pervasive," with a claim that 67 non-citizens were illegally registered to vote in Kansas (out of more than 1.7 million total registered voters), the claim has since been debunked, and the state has prosecuted one case of voter fraud in the past five years.
A study on the 2002 and 2004 elections in Ohio, conducted by the League of Women Voters Coalition, found that four of roughly 9 million votes were cast illegally. Thats a 0.000044% "fraud rate.
And yet the GOP wants to disenfranchise literally millions of voters to prevent a handful of fraudulent votes.
Our founding fathers taught us that "consent of the governed is a critical part of our form of government. An essential part of being an American
The GOP is relentless in trying to block consent by the governed at the polls, based on bogus ranting about widespread voter fraud.
>>I've done voter registration - and I have to turn in ALL registrations - >>in my state it would be a felony to not turn one in.
ReplyDelete>>Even where I suspect the registration is phony. In that case, I attach a >>note listing my concerns and the basis for them.
AGAIN, YOU THINK THAT WHAT HAPPENS TO YOU IS WHAT HAPPENS EVERYWHERE TO EVERYONE. WHY DO YOU PERSIST IN THAT RIDICULOUSLY NARROW MINDED WAY OF THINKING? IS IT EGO? ARE YOU JUST NOT VERY SMART? WHATEVER IT IS, LET ME TELL YOU THAT THE WORLD IS FULL OF UNSCRUPULOUS PEOPLE WHO USE VOTER REGISTRATION FOR NEFARIOUS PURPOSES.
>>No, we are against photo ID requirements which, for many people, are >>difficult to acquire.
AGAIN, WHY DO YOU DELIBERATELY IGNORE SOME FACTS AND INFORMATION PROVIDED TO YOU? I SAID, "THE VOTER ID IS FREE." FREE. FREE. FREE. DO YOU UNDERSTAND WHAT THAT WORD MEANS? THE VOTER ID WILL BE PROVIDED BY THE STATE--ALL THE VOTER HAS TO DO IS ASK FOR IT.
SLC
ALSO, YOU SAID: I have also been a poll worker in a state where we do not require photo IDs. And yet we still require some form of identification. For example, a utility bill. John Doe comes in, shows us a utility bill in his name. We check the voter rolls and make sure there is a John Doe at the address on the bill. Pretty good proof, IMO---
ReplyDeletePRETTY GOOD PROOF? ARE YOU SERIOUS? HOW DO YOU KNOW THAT THE "JOHN DOE" WHO CAME IN WAS ACTUALLY JOHN DOE? SUPPOSE THE REAL JOHN DOE DIDN'T ACTUALLY VOTE. NOW SUPPOSE THAT THE "JOHN DOE" THAT SHOWED UP TO VOTE WAS ACTUALLY CHARLES LINNDALE. OR NATHAN HUGHMAN? OR JOE SMITH? FURTHER, SUPPOSE THAT CHARLES AND NATHAN AND JOE AREN'T EVEN FROM THE STATE WHERE THEY'RE VOTING? CAN YOU SAY, VOTER FRAUD?
PRETTY GOOD PROOF, INDEED. AND YOU'RE AN ELECTION WORKER? NOW I WORRY MORE FOR THIS COUNTRY THAN EVER.
First - stop shouting in "all caps"
ReplyDeleteSecond, drop the personal attacks.
Otherwise, your posts will be deleted as spam
>>PRETTY GOOD PROOF? ARE YOU SERIOUS? HOW DO YOU KNOW THAT THE "JOHN DOE" WHO CAME IN WAS ACTUALLY JOHN DOE? SUPPOSE THE REAL JOHN DOE DIDN'T ACTUALLY VOTE. NOW SUPPOSE THAT THE "JOHN DOE" THAT SHOWED UP TO VOTE WAS ACTUALLY CHARLES LINNDALE. OR NATHAN HUGHMAN? OR JOE SMITH? FURTHER, SUPPOSE THAT CHARLES AND NATHAN AND JOE AREN'T EVEN FROM THE STATE WHERE THEY'RE VOTING? CAN YOU SAY, VOTER FRAUD?
If you'd stop to think about it, you'd realize that your "CHARLES LINNDALE OR NATHAN HUGHMAN OR JOE SMITH" wouldn't have a utility bill addressed to and delivered to John Doe's address.
The amount of voter fraud actually found when searched for by officials is minuscule - even when including your unverified claims.
In 2008 there were 129,391,711votes cast in the presidential contest.
Assume there were 1,000 cases of voter fraud and assume they were all cast for democratic candidates -- (both assumptions are actually impossible, of course.)
That would mean that 0.0007728470% of the votes cast were fraudulent.
And to combat that wildly inflated number, the GOP wants to exclude hundreds of thousands of voters through onerous voter picture ID requirements.
.
>>PRETTY GOOD PROOF, INDEED. AND YOU'RE AN ELECTION WORKER? NOW I WORRY MORE FOR THIS COUNTRY THAN EVER.
So you attribute the ID requirement rules passed by the legislature decades ago in my state to me personally? And conclude they are worrisome.
Not only were these rules written decades ago, they are same same rules for all voters - we have no idea of how any voter will vote; AND these rules are applied by 2 Republican poll workers and 2 Democratic poll workers sitting and applying the rules at each precinct station.
Here's a suggestion. After pounding out each sentence and paragraph, stop and ask yourself: "Does this really make any sense? Would I accept the logic if a liberal offered it up?"
Regarding your belief that dems are more likely to commit voter fraud.
ReplyDeleteBesides the James O'Keefe attempts, here's another example of GOP based voter fraud - where a GOP candidate submitted ballot petitions with photocopied duplications:
http://www.freep.com/article/20120530/NEWS15/205300359/State-reviews-U-S-Rep-Thaddeus-McCotter-s-petitions-for-criminal-fraud
In a time where identify theft is a growing crime, and the full impact of the mayhem is immeasurable, I seriously question anyone, who argues your political voice has no value! Just like those who vehemently oppose guns are usually the biggest crooks....
ReplyDelete